Ok, folks, this is a philosophical question, but I am thinking in BIG terms these days.
When you hear the phrase "do good and avoid evil" what does that mean to you? How do you "do good"? How do you avoid evil? What is good? What is evil?
Ok. Go.
When you hear the phrase "do good and avoid evil" what does that mean to you? How do you "do good"? How do you avoid evil? What is good? What is evil?
Ok. Go.
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 9:50 AMok, you asked!
avoid evil - to me - right now is, no premarital sex. so i avoid even considering it with anyone. or even fantasizing with someone i really like. it consumes my thoughts if i let it get a hold... and anyway, i wont allow myself to have it, so its no bueno.
do good, volunteer, clean my house, avoid negativity, smile and try to laugh a good deep laugh at least once a day :)
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 11:22 AMThis is such a deep question to answer and I'm not sure I can. I suppose the short answer for me would be following the Golden Rule for "doing good" -- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. "Avoiding evil" for me would be avoiding behavior that goes against my own personal code of ethics and virtue. I know it's a rather simplistic answer to a question that is anything but simple.
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 3:07 PMThis is the entire basis of Christian Ethics: do good and avoid evil. All I can remember about good is that it is irreducible and undefinable. Also that, as everything is creation is created by the Creator, even the ugliest evil has a smidgen of good in it. Did you ever study Fagothey's /Ethics/? It would seem likely that a Catholic girl who asks this question has.
There is an innate or "connatural" knowledge that every culture and society recognizes, i.e. don't murder, don't steal, etc. Even people who make a living doing those things know they're wrong, barring serious mental disturbance.
For me, doing good has boiled down to taking care of myself, being kind, and being socially responsible in basic ways: paying taxes, driving responsibly, washing hands. If I start to think of the good I might have done, it quickly becomes the good I have failed to do and that gets me into a cycle of thinking which convinces me that I'm evil. It's irrational but I can berate myself for not doing better when I'm doing the best I can.
The Golden Rule is a good model. If you'd like a great expansion on the whole proposition, read Aquinas's /Summa Theologica"/ in how ever many volumes it's printed. Or read Fagothey.
You said you're thinking in BIG terms, so I tried to give you a big answer along with some personal, practical things.
-
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Mon, June 30, 2008 - 12:22 PM
I'm not sure I have a definition of good, other than helping people. My definition of evil is treating people as if they were things. I do not believe that there is a objective good or evil, it is all subjective.
> Also that, as everything is creation is created by the Creator, even the ugliest evil has a smidgen of good in it.
This assumes the Creator is good. To me the Creator is beyond good and evil. The Creator is eternal and therefore doesn't look at reality from a dualistic viewpoint (good/evil, black/white, past/future, etc.). To the Creator, in my belief, all is one.
> There is an innate or "connatural" knowledge that every culture and society recognizes, i.e. don't murder, don't steal, etc.
There are no innate values that *every* culture lives by. Many of the native societies of the americas believed that sacrificing an enemy warrior to their god was an honor to the one sacrificed. Even in our own society it's acceptable to many that the state murder people. As for stealing, there have been many, many cultures around the world which have no concept of ownership. Those people take what they need. You didn't mention rape or incest, but there are societies here in the US where these are common practices.
The subjective is fine with me. If I do something good for someone, I feel good about myself. Since I don't believe that we are judged for our lives by the Creator, nothing else really matters.
-
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 4:07 PMI prefer the buddhist concept of doing no harm. -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 5:49 AMstrugling : I prefer the buddhist concept of doing no harm.
i never bot a drunk a drink. :D
i hart the Dhammapada . :) -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 6:25 AMok, you know how wen you're studying budhist scriptures and you have all kinds of trouble finding the exact rite translation you are looking for of a pasage from the Dhammapada and you just can't find it?
well check this out. i found what has got to be like the gold mine of budhist translation thingys. here :)
enjoy ! :)
www.accesstoinsight.org/tipita...ex.html -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 6:44 AM64. Though all his life a fool associates with a wise man, he no more comprehends the Truth than a spoon tastes the flavor of the soup.
65. Though only for a moment a discerning person associates with a wise man, quickly he comprehends the Truth, just as the tongue tastes the flavor of the soup.
i would add to this : a wise person who is wery in ther search for the daharma, will find pieces of it hiden even umung the greatest of fools.
just bcals somone isn't a sage dosn't meen they don't poses any wisdom that a wise person has yet to perseve.
and
63. A fool who knows his foolishness is wise at least to that extent, but a fool who thinks himself wise is a fool indeed.
i would add to that: the more somone judges others to be fools the more likley it is that they them selvs are a fool.
the more often somone looks at others and says "i have nothing to learn from you" the less likley they are to gain wisdom in ther lifes
-
-
-
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 7:30 PMI don't really believe in anything that is 100% 'good' or 'evil'. No matter what we do, something may end up suffering because of our thoughts, words or deeds. Simply by moving, we eradicate millions of microscopic organisms and even vegetarians take life to feed themselves. I think the best anyone can hope to achieve is to minimize suffering or harm inflicted on other living things (and even non-living things). If you are even a slightly sane, slightly mature person, you can generally predict the course of events that an action or word will trigger and decide if the outcome is positive or negative, but ultimately it's up to the individual to decide what they're going to do in any given situation.
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Thu, July 3, 2008 - 12:09 PMI think there is objective Good and Evil, I think most of the shades of gray nonsense we here is from people who don't want to admit they've done, or will do "evil", I know I've done bad things in my life. It's not something I can describe, per se, but I know it when I see it.
Selfish things, tend towards evil, but not ALWAYS. Selfless things tend towards good, but not always. You see there is the rub deep down is that the reason why--matter. If you do seemingly selfless things for hope of reward/accolade--is it really selfless? Or is it just a different thread of selfishness?
For me though doing good means treating people as best I can, trying not to judge them--this is a hard task for me.
I know evil, in part, because it was done to me. I work hard to never treat anyone that way myself. Its easy on some parts, but not on others.
Of course recognizing the evil, makes it a bit easier to steer away, to aim for better treatment of others in my life around me. -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Thu, July 3, 2008 - 1:10 PM*** I think most of the shades of gray nonsense we here is from people who don't want to admit they've done, or will do "evil" ***
I don't think in terms of good/evil because I personally don't feel it's up to me to determine if something is right or wrong. I've done hurtful things to other people in the course of my life, and I've done things that were right for me personally that may have negatively impacted someone else. The only person I have a right to pass judgment on is myself, and I generally hold my own thoughts, words and actions up to pretty intense scrutiny. Most things that people consider 'good' or 'evil' are determined by society or their religions. Being gay or bi is considered 'evil' by fundamental Christians - but is it evil or was it just evil during the time the Muslim/Jewish/Christian religions were established? Was it even evil then or did whoever write those ancient religious tomes believe it was wrong for themselves so it must be wrong for everyone? Murder is considered evil by most people - but every day soldiers kill other people. Are they evil, or are they performing a necessary service to their country? And you've got people like my mother-in-law - my m.i.l verbally abuses her daughter (a grown woman) constantly because her daughter fell in love w/a black man. I believe my m.i.l. is a racist and a bigot - but my m.i.l. believes she is in the right to judge someone for the color of their skin, and I don't. Which one of us is evil - my m.i.l. for being a bigot, or me for telling her she's wrong? Millions of people believe as my m.i.l. does - are they right? -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 10:21 AM
Janelle, Have you any opinion about the custom of female circumcision and about a person who performs such a surgery? I happen to believe it is objectively wrong.
Your MIL is wrong for being a bigot. That doesn't mean you are necessarily right for telling her so.
How can you make moral choices in life without making judging the rightness or wrongness of such a choice? -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 8:37 PM** How can you make moral choices in life without making judging the rightness or wrongness of such a choice? **
I can make decisions for myself just fine - but I cannot tell other people what to do based on societal restrictions that I may or may not agree with. I just don't think it's in my line of work to determine if someone else is doing something wrong or whatever unless they're trying to do it to me. 90% of the time, when I make a moral or ethical decision, I'm not necessarily doing something because it's the right thing to do - I'm probably doing it because I don't want to spend any time in a jail cell, or because I want to do something. I also don't consider myself being 'good' or 'evil', I'm just sliding along like most people, cheating where I know I can get away with it. I don't feel that makes me 'evil', especially since about the most unlawful thing I do is not buckle my seatbelt.
And I happen to agree with you that female circumcision is wrong, for at least 100 different reasons - and I'm glad I'm not born into a society that practices it. I had a near-brush w/a cliterodectomy when I was 13, but my guardian (an elderly aunt) at that time couldn't find a modern doctor who would agree to perform the operation. I don't think my aunt was evil - misguided and abusive - but not evil. -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Mon, July 7, 2008 - 8:02 PMIf someone hurts another on purpose and with intent and without consent*. That such a thing is bad.
Period.
I can say rape, murder, child abuse--those things are bad, evil. I don't understand where someone can say "that's none of my business to judge.." such things. -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 7:10 AMbecals the defenition of rape, murder , and child abuse very from society to society, even from time period to time period within a single society and antropological reaserch has prety consistantly shown that the negative sycological efects of such treatment is determined by how much the treatment diferes from the perseeved social norm for such treatment in that particular time frame and society/social-group.
for example, in many cultures it is normal, even expected as part of proper child rearing , to mirsilesly beat a child to the point of serius welts and bruising when the child missbehaves, and children in those societys who reseve such beatings are no less well adjusted for it.
as wer if you administer a tenth of that level of fisical punishment to a child in white suberban american midlle class protitant culture, it would be emotionaly and socialy devistating to the long term develpment of the kid.
if you don't belive me then just listen to a black urban baptist comedian who grew up pore as dirt talk about "getin his ass beat by his moma " for a seemingly small infraction of "talkin back" to his granmother. and then braging to the kids at school about how bad he got beaten and about how much worse his welts and bruises wer than thers.
and those are simply the difreces in our own country.
try to imagine (it's easy if you try) how much more of a complete seperation ther is between us and a group of peaple who do not share the same religion, climate, family structure, social traditions, language , LEVEL OF TECHNOLOGY, INFINT DEATH RATE, AVERAGE LIFE EXPECTANCY.
look up the term, ethnocentrisity. (i probubly didn't spell that rite)
how much of a service do you do somone if you at a young age choose a body configuration for them that will render them incapuble of finding a mate within ther society who will be happy to have them as a wife or husband?
i'm mostly playing devils advocate here,i personaly find the very dea of these things aporent, but the stuff i'm saying is true non the less, and a valid argument non the less
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 8:21 AM*** I can say rape, murder, child abuse--those things are bad, evil. I don't understand where someone can say "that's none of my business to judge.." such things.***
I have the same problem with people who have a black/white good/evil perspective on the world - I actually kind of envy people who can see things in those simplistic terms. -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 9:04 AMI think that there's room for everyone - the black/white people as well as the grays.
For me, there was a time in my life where I was comfortable with black and white thinking - it made life much easier. Most of life for me, however, happens in the gray - for better or worse. -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 3:31 PM> I think that there's room for everyone - the black/white people as well as the grays.
I think the black/white people cause more than their share of hurt in this world. Thinking in absolutist terms means you are not thinking about people and you are not accepting people for who they are. The grey shades is where we live. The black and white people are the ones who strap bombs to themselves and berate children who don't know any better. These are the people who preach hatred for gays even though Jesus very clearly said "Love thy neighbor as thyself" was the *greatest* commandment.
We are approaching 7 billion people on this planet and every single one of them has a completely different perspective on life. But the black/white people only see 1: their own selfish bullshit.
Fuck them. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 5:10 PMI respectfully disagree, bundt. I really don't think that the black/white people are all bomb strappers. I think a good majority of them don't chew their own food for fear or incapacity. It would be great if the average 7-11 clerk or mechanic were able to study philosophy and had the intellectual capacity to apply it to life's situations, but that's not the world in which we live. Some people just aren't that deep or are intellectually lazy or start from faulty premises. I am thinking of one woman I know in particular who is extremely intelligent and completely logical - logic, one could say, is her god. If she starts from a faulty premise, however, she gets further and further off course with that logic because the initial hypothesis is incorrect. This, too, leads to black and white thinking.
And besides, it's safe there. -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 2:24 PM> I really don't think that the black/white people are all bomb strappers.
I didn't say that. I said all the bomb strapper see the world in black and white. Big difference.
> I think a good majority of them don't chew their own food for fear or incapacity.
I don't even know what this means. I'd love it if you'd clarify what you are saying here.
> It would be great if the average 7-11 clerk or mechanic were able to study philosophy and had the intellectual capacity to apply it to life's situations, but that's not the world in which we live.
I don't think it requires intelligence or education to see that there are shades of grey and that not everything falls into black and white. As you say, there are very intelligent people who fall into the black/white category of thinking.
It's not about how smart you are, it's about whether you can pull your head out of your ass and realize that everyone is different and what works for some doesn't work for others. Anyone, barring mental incapacity, has the ability to see that, if they only would.
> And besides, it's safe there.
For the one thinking that way, perhaps, but my point is that these people try to inflict their narrow definition of the world on others. And since they can't see the shades of grey that we all live in, they tend to do damage, whether it's blowing up a pizza place in Tel Aviv because they can't see the difference between the (terrorist) state of Israel that they hate and the innocent citizens of that state or whether it's shouting Christian slogans through a bullhorn at people entering a show at the Warfield or whether it's tying up Berkeley traffic to attack Marine recruiters who have every right to do their jobs.
People who see the world in black and white terms refuse to even listen to other viewpoints. How can we get along if we can't even talk to each other?
-
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 7:57 PM<We are approaching 7 billion people on this planet and every single one of them has a completely different perspective on life. But the black/white people only see 1: their own selfish bullshit.
Fuck them.>
So, everyone has a completely different perspective except the "black/white people"? Who are they? This strikes me as a rather severe judgement and your protest of black & white thinking is expressed in the starkest black & white terms. -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 2:26 PM> So, everyone has a completely different perspective except the "black/white people"?
No, everyone has a unique persepective on the world. People who think in black and white terms just refuse to see anyone else's worldview. To them, you are either right or wrong, with them or against them.
> Who are they?
They are Code Pink, they are the Khmer Rouge, they are the Janjaweed, they are Hamas, they are Timothy McVeigh.
They are the physics teacher in high school who refused to hear how the solution you put on the test actually works, even though it wasn't what's in his answer book. They are the preacher in church condemning the entire city of San Francisco. They are the people who think all muslims are terrorists. They are the jackasses who think it's ok to beat you up for supporting a different sports team than theirs. They are the depression-help tribe moderators, who can't see any situation where meds could help.
> This strikes me as a rather severe judgement and your protest of black & white thinking is expressed in the starkest black & white terms.
If you think I didn't notice this, and that I don't struggle with how to live with this, then you don't know me. The hypocracy of my fanatical anti-fanaticism is an element of my view of the world that I have a great deal of trouble with. It doesn't make me wrong, though.
The only thing I can say for myself on this is that I do attempt to see their perspective. I do understand why Hamas desires to wipe Israel off the map. I do understand why Cindy Sheehan is so desperate to stop the war. I do understand how difficult it is to admit to yourself that your long held beliefs might not be the truth to others. It doesn't make them right, though. -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 2:37 PMHey bundt, I don't have time to answer you in a thoughtful way right now, but I did get the feeling you might feel attacked - please don't. I'm looking for discussion here, and I respect you WAAAY too much to be dismissive or curt. Besides, you're smart. I like that in a person.
So, I will answer when I get back, maybe tonight - just didn't want to leave you thinking WTF is Darla doing/saying. No offense meant - this is good meat to chew on - I didn't mean to chew on you (if that is how it felt!).
BBL.
D. -
-
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 5:08 PMOk, here goes, but be kind - I have a MONSTER headache and I might not be as articulate as I'd like.
> I think a good majority of them don't chew their own food for fear or incapacity.
I don't even know what this means. I'd love it if you'd clarify what you are saying here.
What I mean by "chew their own food" is that people let other people do their thinking for them. They don't think critically. They are not interested in the deeper issues. Some have all they can do to stay in the game, i.e. keep their heads above water with bills, work, etc. These are the people who aren't concerned about Iraq or Dafur because it's not happening HERE. These are the people who believe it when the government says "We're here to help." They don't look beyond face value. It's easier to have absolutes because then the very nasty work of thinking things through, you know, the heavy lifting of the cerebrum, doesn't fall to them.
(I'm gonna take some Aleve and sit a bit. I'll come back to this.) -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 4:08 PM> What I mean by "chew their own food" is that people let other people do their thinking for them. They don't think critically.
Ignorance is bliss. I understand that this might make life easier, but it also makes life easier for the Bush/Cheneys of the world, and the Robert Mugabes, and the Slobodan Milosovics. Life is hard enough for those of us out of power without making it so simple for those bastards. -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 5:44 PMbundt, I am not saying it's a good thing, necessarily, just that it's understandable (and much easier). -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Wed, July 16, 2008 - 5:22 PM> bundt, I am not saying it's a good thing, necessarily, just that it's understandable (and much easier).
Darla and Max, I'm sorry this side of me came out here: xkcd.com/386/
It is a side of me I am working to contain. It is one of my goals this year. -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Wed, July 16, 2008 - 6:33 PMOMG, bundt, you had me about to pee my pants with that - I can SO relate!!!
No worries about apologizing - we're just talking, right?
Moocho smoocho,
D.
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Mon, July 21, 2008 - 3:31 PM: xkcd.com/386/
Sometimes some little silly joke just cracks me up something awful and this is one.... I laugh out load after seeing "on a mission"... I would have rolled around on the floor but I need help getting down there and then help to get back up....!!!!
Tanks Bundt... made my afternoon.....
-
-
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 7:09 AMBush/Cheneys of the world, and the Robert Mugabes, and the Slobodan Milosovics
you forgot the Arthur Slugworths , tom riddles , and James Moriartys.
:) -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 11:30 AM> you forgot the Arthur Slugworths , tom riddles , and James Moriartys.
"I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way." - Jessica Rabbit
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:05 PMThanks for your thoughtful reply, bundt. I had thought you were likely unaware of what you call your fanatical anti-fanaticism but I was clearly mistaken, and pleased to admit it in this case. All I know of you is what I read and I do my best to be willing to be changed by what I read.
Consider removing Code Pink from your list. Any group that can hold a kiss-in on Valentine's Day, with the slogan "Make out, not war" has a sense of humor. They are supported by some fine people, too.
-
-
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Mon, July 21, 2008 - 11:19 AM"think the black/white people cause more than their share of hurt in this world. Thinking in absolutist terms means you are not thinking about people and you are not accepting people for who they are."
-----------
I'm not saying black and white people don't cause hurt. But not every hurt is the same, nor every response to hurt. I'll have to disagree with accepting that "Who some is", is something I have to accept, and like--a murderer or rapist or child molester-- who is unrepentant, isn't someone I will ever accept. Not even touching upon the rate of recidivisms in some criminal/immoral types. there is a reason that we have laws, and punishments for violating them.
*shrugs*
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 10:24 AM
Janelle, Have you any opinion about the custom of female circumcision and about a person who performs such a surgery? I happen to believe it is objectively wrong.
Your MIL is wrong for being a bigot. That doesn't mean you are necessarily right for telling her so. I doubt it was news to her.
How can you make moral choices in life without judging the rightness or wrongness of such a choice? -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 10:24 AM
Sorry for double post.
Tribe had a cyberfart. -
-
Re: Question: Is there an objective good?
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 11:36 AMTribe? Cyberfart? Say it isn't so, Max! I find that so hard to believe (NOT!).
-
-
-
-
-
THERE IS NO REAL ANSWER.
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 1:02 AM"The question of good and the nature of evil will always be one of philosophys most intriguing problems,up there with the problem of existence itself." -INGRID, WHITE OLEANDER.