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OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

topic posted Thu, February 7, 2008 - 12:44 PM by  SpiritFlame
Seems that I have been labeled a toxic person over there... I guess they don't like my point of view. I don't know if this is the place for this, but I found the following exchange enlightening. The comments that begin with ">> " are from a member of the forum there while the response is mine. I just could not believe what I was reading when I read his original post.




>> When one is so long into depression, that the chemicals released
>> are hard for people to get out of that state of being. Drugs are useful
>> for feeling "normal" so that one can get used to again what life is like
>> without depression, but at some point I believe we need to remove
>> the crutch and walk without the "training wheels."
>
Just as crutches are to help someone walk until they get back on their feet?? What about an individual who has lost the use of their legs in some sort of accident or was born without the use of their legs. Do you tell them that they should remove the training wheels on which they rely?? There are some people who are either born with a need for these chemicals, or through some sort of unfortunate event, will find that they will never again be able to function normally. I would think you would have some compassion for these individuals just as I would expect that you would have compassion for those who were born without the use of their legs, or eyes, or ears...

But then I know very little about you... perhaps you have no compassion for those individuals either.



>> It's like quitting smoking. The patch and all that stuff is there
>> so you can get used to life without a cigarette before removing
>> the physical addiction.
>
Yeah... just as the individual who has had a hearing loss is addicted to hearing aids or the individual who has lost the use of their legs is addicted to crutches. We should kick the crutches out from under the cripple so they get back to walking again, yes?? We should take the cane away from the blind person so that they will quit relying on it and get back to the task of seeing again!!

Very compassionate of you... very ignorant of you...


>> It's training wheels for you to know how to walk in life again without the crutch,
>> but eventually you have to remove that patch also. Same thing.
>
yeah right...


>> I also know that having a relationship with God, through prayer,
>> reading the Bible and worship, is an important part of delivery
>> from depression, suicide, negative self-image, fear and
>> emotional bad habits, breaking negative emotions off our lives.
>
Which one... the Jewish one, the Christian one, or the Muslim one... ;-} I suggest that my spiritual life is my concern not yours.

Personally I will throw my lot in with the doctors, psychiatrists, psycho-pharmacologists, and counselors who have devoted their lives to the study of my condition. Call me crazy [ ;-} ] but I have more faith in their understand, diagnosis, and treatment if my condition than in some faceless voice on the internet that tells me to "kick the bad habit" and "read the bible"...

but then that's just me... ;-)
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SpiritFlame
offline SpiritFlame
SF Bay Area
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  • Janelle
    Janelle
    online 15

    Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

    Thu, February 7, 2008 - 3:45 PM
    Sounds kinda like my mother-in-law. Since my husband managed to successfully control his blood sugar over the past month, he's cured and should be able to eat anything he wants and stop testing.

    Some people don't accept that they or someone they love may never be 'cured' - that they are looking at a lifetime of drug therapy, mental or physical therapy, etc. I have a lot of compassion for the care-takers and friends and families of people with chronic illnesses. It's been tiring for me over the past couple of months because I'm the one stuck doing all the cooking and meal-planning, but I can't imagine what it's like for my husband - he's dealt with a woman he can't just 'make happy' for the past 12 years.
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  • Tim
    Tim
    online 15

    Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

    Thu, February 7, 2008 - 4:39 PM
    Yeah. I don't post there anymore for the "crusade" against medicine. The fact that the group is "creatively" edited to remove dissenting posts/objections that differ from certain narrow views bugs me to the point its not worth my time to bother with.
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  • Tim
    Tim
    online 15

    Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

    Thu, February 7, 2008 - 4:45 PM
    As to the Bible, tecchnically speaking the Bible refers to the Holy Bible of some fort, a Christian book, as opposed to the Quran or Torah. Since those have their own names. While technically religious books, they are not all "the Bible", but I do understand what your saying. (Just picky about your personal wording *LOL* sorry :D)

    I'm a Christian myself, but prayer, and such is not a solution to everything, neither is reading the Bible. I'm constantly reminded of the old joke, about the man in the flood, sometimes, we have to get up and take action, God isn't going to scoop us up in his hands and make it better. We have to take action towards getting better, dealing with illness, etc. There may be help there, depending on your beliefs (I'm sure there is, but lead your own life :D) but its not going to be obvious at all.
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    • Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

      Thu, February 7, 2008 - 7:02 PM
      I'm just glad that you've come here, to us, Spitfire. I think that most of us here know that Depression Help is not a healthy place to be. The creator and moderator is, quite simply, stark raving mad. Many of us battle with conditions which might be considered "crazy" by others. However, we don't go out and create a following, to look up to us as their all-knowing leader.

      That said, I know that there may be strong feelings involved, on both sides. However, it's important not to quote too much of posts from other tribes, because it is against the Tribe Rules, and wouldn't "the moderator" of the other tribe just love to wreak havok on Darla?! I'm sure that you didn't know this, and only wanted to share your frustration with people who would understand. I know some of what insanity goes on there, and I am sooo glad you left. Welcome; this truly is a safe place to be.
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      • Spir...
        SpiritFlame
        offline 57

        Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

        Sat, February 9, 2008 - 5:43 PM
        >> I'm just glad that you've come here, to us, Spitfire. I think
        >> that most of us here know that Depression Help is not a
        >> healthy place to be. The creator and moderator is, quite
        >> simply, stark raving mad. Many of us battle with conditions
        >> which might be considered "crazy" by others. However, we
        >> don't go out and create a following, to look up to us as their
        >> all-knowing leader.
        >
        Well... I have a strong objection to banning "dangerous" medications from those who could benefit from it. Let the patient determine what is "dangerous" since they are the one that has to live with the condition. I am on venlafaxine, it has unpleasant side-effects, and may shorten my life, but I would rather have 5 to 10 years with the life I have now than 50 the way I was. I think it should be my choice.

        >> However, it's important not to quote too much of posts from
        >> other tribes, because it is against the Tribe Rules, and
        >> wouldn't "the moderator" of the other tribe just love to wreak
        >> havok on Darla?
        >
        Oops... sorry, I didn't know there was such a rule. I just thought since people could go look, that it would be alright to quote... I didn't want to cause trouble, just make it easy to discuss here.


        >> I know some of what insanity goes on there, and I am sooo
        >> glad you left. Welcome; this truly is a safe place to be.
        >
        I thank you for your welcome. I had thought one could make a difference over there, but they don't want to listen. Sometimes one can only walk away... {{sigh}}
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        • Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

          Sat, February 9, 2008 - 10:39 PM
          "sometimes one can only walk away." Smart girl! And I did assume that you weren't aware of that tribe rule--I don't know why it exists, myself--only that it does.

          I think that, for anyone who struggles with mental health issues, it is a sign to be wary of anyone who is too adament that their view is the only right one. People with issues who seem to fight too hard about something remind me a bit of the quite: "I thinkst thou protesteth too much." It DOES seem to me that the moderator would benefit greatly from medication!
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          • PLEASE NOTE: Very Important

            Sun, February 10, 2008 - 10:18 AM
            ANYONE who is receiving threatening or abusive PMs is STRONGLY urged to contact the TOU person, Wendy. We have a right to express our opinions without being afraid that we will be attacked either publicly or privately.

            Anything else is unacceptable.

            Darla
            Tribe Moderator
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    • Spir...
      SpiritFlame
      offline 57

      Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

      Sat, February 9, 2008 - 5:34 PM
      >> As to the Bible, technically speaking the Bible refers
      >> to the Holy Bible of some fort, a Christian book, as
      >> opposed to the Quran or Torah. Since those have
      >> their own names. While technically religious books,
      >> they are not all "the Bible", but I do understand what
      >> your saying.
      >
      Bible most frequently refers to the canonical collections of religious writings or books of Judaism and Christianity.
      -- Wikipedia

      So... as a pagan, I am not familiar with all the terminology, but it would seem that there are both Jewish and Christian bibles since many of the Jewish books are not part of the Christian bible. Since there is Qur'an canonical set of books for Islam, it would seem to me that it would be considered a bible also.


      >> 'm a Christian myself, but prayer, and such is not a
      >> solution to everything, neither is reading the Bible.
      >> I'm constantly reminded of the old joke, about the
      >> man in the flood, sometimes, we have to get up and
      >> take action, God isn't going to scoop us up in his
      >> hands and make it better. We have to take action
      >> towards getting better, dealing with illness, etc.
      >
      That's a favorite joke among the Pagans I know... :-)
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      • Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

        Sat, February 9, 2008 - 5:58 PM
        Actually, Spitfire, the firstbooks of the Old Testament in the Bible (can't remember right now how many) ARE the Torah. Originally, most of the bible was written for Jews. Jesus, himself, was a Jew, afterall. Christianity does recognize all of the Old Testament as being part of the same Bible as the New Testament. The difference between the two is the dividing point in time between the birth of Jesus and the time which was before his coming. But, to Christuans, at least, it is the same God that they worship. Most Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah (Savior) whose coming had been prophesied and are still waiting for the coming of the Messiah, whereas Christians believe that the Messiah came when Jesus was born.

        Islam accepts both the Old and New Testaments as truth. The main difference, on the surface, at least, is that Muslims believe that, while Jesus was a great prophet, he was not the greatest prophet of all. They believe that in the coming of the prophet Mohammed, the True Way became clear. While they accept the Judeo-Christian Bible, Muslims believe that the recorded teachings of the Great Prophet Mohammed in the Q'uran are the ultimate Truth.

        And that was probably way more than you wanted to know! But in the current political circumstances, I think it's important for all of us to understand as much as we can about the three religions.
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  • Spir...
    SpiritFlame
    offline 57

    Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

    Fri, February 15, 2008 - 1:31 PM
    >> Seems that I have been labeled a toxic person over there...
    >
    Nope... I misunderstood. So, that would indicate that I suffer from paranoia which apparently is a side effect of the type of medication that I am on...

    So... to summarize, sorry, I am not a toxic person, I am suffering from drug induced paranoia... ;-)
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    • Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

      Fri, February 15, 2008 - 2:02 PM
      One tribe's toxic (or paranoid) is another tribe's breath of fresh air. Guess it depends on the beholder, etc.
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      • Spir...
        SpiritFlame
        offline 57

        Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

        Fri, February 15, 2008 - 2:12 PM
        >> One tribe's toxic (or paranoid) is another tribe's breath of
        >> fresh air. Guess it depends on the beholder, etc.
        >
        {{sigh}}

        Sorry... I just get tired sometime. The gentleman who caused all the trouble an NIU was on what appears to be a medication and apparently went off it and then shot up the class. I thought my new life would be so beautiful and wonderful. It has really, loved by a gentle, sweet Persian who died of a brain tumor telling me that I was the only man she had ever said, "I love you" to. A second woman now, several years later, who I share love with just as deeply...

        and yet, I have been hauled off to the emergency by police who took me into "protective custody" because a jealous woman wanted to show me how vulnerable I was to her jealousy. All she had to do was say, "I don't think his medication is working, he's scaring me"... I was stripped of my security clearance and investigated for espionage because of my relationship with my Persian.

        and now questions being raised as to the general stability of all of us "mentally Ill" individuals on medication and how much of a threat we are to ourselves and others. Maybe My Persian was right... we should have just gone to a remote island and loved away from the whole world.
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        • Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

          Fri, February 15, 2008 - 2:35 PM
          You know, SF, I scanned the article on the gunman at NIU. I find these things doubly sad: first of all, because of the tragedies that they are; secondly, because of the pain of one of our community, for, after all, he is our brother. Not everyone, most certainly goes off the rails and kills, but, I feel a deep and mournful compassion for someone who is mentally ill.

          That being said, what I was scanning for particularly was the mention of a psychotropic medication. They said he had stopped taking his medication, but they did not say what it was FOR. His father stated that he, himself, was a diabetic, and, should someone have their insulin levels out of whack, they can certainly present as nuts. Coupled with psychotic tendencies...I actually know a nun (funny, eh?) who is a lifelong diabetic. She was literally arrested for public drunkenness (no, she was NOT with me!) when her insulin got nuts, so it can happen. I just find it interesting that they didn't say what KIND of medication he was on (yet).

          So, that brings up the question of WHY we mentally ill are so ostracized. Why? Because we do not fit society's mold. Any time someone chooses their own truth (or delusion as it may be), they live outside the conformation of society. Those people make society uncomfortable because, on a deeply primal level, they (we) aren't controllable and aren't falling between the stingy norms of behavior the masses find acceptable. Personally, I think that much of what Thomas Szasz says is true: mental illness is largely based on "problem in living." We don't conform, so we are a problem.

          This is, doubtless, oversimplification, but it may be a starting point for discussion...or not.
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          • Kim
            Kim
            offline 28

            Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

            Fri, February 15, 2008 - 5:55 PM
            It is a devastating tragedy undoubtedly.

            "We don't conform, so we are a problem. "

            This is how they (people who don't have any form of mental illness) pigeon hole us and we're so busy getting better or staying well that we can't do much to change our image yet we are stronger and more capable than Roger Clemens jacked up on HGH on our worst days. It's easier to be dismissive of us than acknowledge we might know more, feel more, create more, and be more than them on their best days so nanny nanny foo foo on them. Look in the mirror and tell me that's no true. Maybe y'all don't feel it all the time but some small fiber of your being has to know it to be true.
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          • Janelle
            Janelle
            online 15

            Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

            Fri, February 15, 2008 - 6:01 PM
            Generally, if a diabetic's bloodsugar shoots up too high, or drops down too low, they act, well, drunk. Or they have seizures and slip into comas. They can be known for being grouchy or short-tempered, but not generally to the point of senseless violence.

            Who really knows what triggers some people? I mean, I took Ambien for 6 weeks one time w/no problem, and then the second try of it I was threatening my husband in my sleep.

            What bothered me most about the shootings was how nonchalant his roommates acted. One said he had been making off-the-wall statements about harming himself or harming others but the roommates sort of laughed it off. Like, "Yeah, our crazy roommate is great entertainment. Get him riled up & see what he says next". At least in grade school, the kids have more interaction with their teachers, but it's like when a kid hits high school, he or she suddenly owns their own problems and people around them over-react and scare them off of seeking help, or they don't react at all.
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            • Spir...
              SpiritFlame
              offline 57

              Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

              Fri, February 15, 2008 - 6:36 PM
              >> What bothered me most about the shootings was how
              >> nonchalant his roommates acted. One said he had been
              >> making off-the-wall statements about harming himself or
              >> harming others but the roommates sort of laughed it off.
              >> Like, "Yeah, our crazy roommate is great entertainment.
              >> Get him riled up & see what he says next".
              >
              This is what bothers me too. Before I was diagnosed and treated, I was in bad shape, but considered normal though a bit eccentric. Now I am considered *mentally ill* even though my life has improved 1000 fold on my medication.


              >> At least in grade school, the kids have more interaction with
              >> their teachers, but it's like when a kid hits high school, he or
              >> she suddenly owns their own problems and people around
              >> them over-react and scare them off of seeking help, or they
              >> don't react at all.
              >
              Yup... Where do these monsters come from?? People who need help, that no one has time for until they break under internal stresses.
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              • Ron
                Ron
                offline 25

                Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

                Fri, February 15, 2008 - 7:51 PM
                my family considered me "lazy" and "overemotional." Never made sense to me until I was diagnosed and put on meds.

                I'm glad this thread evolved as it did. I kept reading and rereading the original posted "exchange" and found it very disturbing, on both ends.
                We're all human.
                Glad you're here Spirit.
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                • Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

                  Fri, February 15, 2008 - 8:00 PM
                  You know, Ron, your other post made me wonder about something. My mother, too, was incredibly narcissistic and everything was ALWAYS about her. Could depression be the response to emotional starvation? Depression IS all about us - it has to be (even annoyingly so). Could that be our attempt at balancing our early deprivation? Just a thought.
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                    Spir...
                    SpiritFlame
                    offline 57

                    Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

                    Fri, February 15, 2008 - 8:17 PM
                    >> Could depression be the response to emotional starvation?
                    >
                    I can't speak for all types of depression, but it seems pretty clear, to those that treated, that mine was a genetically induced chemical. They felt that they could trace it pretty far back in my mother's side of the family. In addition, my counselor was surprised at how quickly and completely I responded to venlafaxine without much cognitive therapy of any sort...
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                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

                      Fri, February 15, 2008 - 10:33 PM
                      I agree..... medicines..... for some people...... are very helpful....... it gives us what our minds can't make on its own....... like endorphines........ (again I'm not a good speller)...... but for some people maybe medicines won't help...... but everyone I've met that has depression and is being treated is benifiting from it......... maybe those who are against it haven't found the right one or havn't even tried them yet........ that's like a six year old saying she doesn't like broccoli when she's never tried it........ I dunno...... some people are just against us trying everything we can to feel better....... i believe that if you haven't tried something because you don't think it'll work then you haven't done all you could for the situation...... if this makes any sense...... sorry its late.... or early..... depending on how you look at it...... I'm going to try to sleep now.... hope all is well.....
                      Megan
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                      • star...
                        starbuck
                        online 24

                        Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

                        Fri, February 15, 2008 - 11:09 PM
                        i think the root of that problem stemms from peaple trying to impose ther own way of doing things on other peaple. as the clasic song gose "whats rite for some mite not me rite for everyone" thats part of what i like about this paticular tribe, the peaple will ofer advise, but if you tell them that you don't think that will work for you the will not critisise your statment, they will just do somthing like ask why and try to understand why you feel that way. and if they still think you're rong then they react with concern that you may be mistaken rather than belitiling your opinions.

                        a realy good group of peaple. (that includes you.)
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                        • Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

                          Sat, February 16, 2008 - 7:53 PM
                          You know, Starbuck? I'd never really thought about it, but you're right; a lot of what makes this tribe so great is the degree of mutual respect, each of us allowed our own voice, no matter how different it may be. And, if someone doesn't "get it," s/he simply asks. No one person ever has to be right, no one wau has to be right. However different, we can all be right. Where else do you find that?!

                          And about medication, yeah, I can't speak for anyone else, but, for myself, I know that I wouldn't still be here without it. I have both inherited and experiential factors that make me wacked. Do the drugs rake all the problems away? Of course not. But they DO make things calmer, less overwhelming, so that I can try to work on getting better, instead of being forever lost un horrible patterns beyond my control.

                          And, for the record--not everyone finds SSRI's to be what works. They address serotonin levels. There are other meds that address epinephrin levels, is definitely what seems to work best for me. (Maybe this is what SF meant when he referred to SSRI+.) For people who have spent to much of their life with raised adrenaline levels, too often on fight-or-flight mode, the meds that target epinephrin can often work best.

                          I agree that meds are not "the answer" to mental ills, but they can sure be a great calmer, equilizer, in preparing us to face what the questions are.
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                      • Spir...
                        SpiritFlame
                        offline 57

                        Re: OK... Refugee From "Depression Help" Forum

                        Fri, February 15, 2008 - 11:38 PM
                        >> I agree..... medicines..... for some people...... are very helpful....... it gives
                        >> us what our minds can't make on its own....... like endorphines........
                        >> (again I'm not a good speller)...... but for some people maybe medicines
                        >> won't help...... but everyone I've met that has depression and is being
                        >> treated is benifiting from it.........
                        >
                        Megan, it can take a bit of experimentation with a psychiatrist to find the right medication. There are a number of SSRI's as well as SSRI+'s and finding the right one can take some time. I know that I benefited from the fact that my sister ended up doing most of the exploring when she was diagnosed. When they finally diagnosed me, they started with the same medication she was on and it worked well. This is not too surprising since we are of the same genetic background.

                        It can still be an ordeal though. I was gradually worked up to 150mg of Effexor daily over a period of weeks. The medication would initially cause anxiety the like of which I have never experienced, before or since, in my life... The effect would slowly fade over the course of about a week or so, but as soon as it did, they would increase the dosage and I make me miserable all over again. (It reminded me of wearing braces on my teeth. Every time my teeth stopped hurting, another trip to the orthodontist would make them ache all over again.) I started referring to my medication as "my death pills" and I hated them. :-) However, I stabilized at 150mg/day and eventually I found peace within and that life is sweet. Some journeys to beautiful places are not all that comfortable.

                        Drugs are never the full answer, but I think for some they are more of one than for others. From what I understand, some types of depression are a downward spiral from a precipitating, or recurring set of precipitating, events (nature vs nurture) In my case, the doctors were able to trace a history of depression back through my mother's side of the family and were confident that correcting the imbalance would be a big step. Even so, the real success for me was that I wanted a life in which there was love, laughter, play and so much more. Once I was shown the path through medication... once I had some people to guide me toward the light, I worked very hard to get there. Currently I am monitored to make sure I do not suffer drug induced euphorias psychotic episodes and and other side effects, but other than that I have basically been set free. Life is sweet and filled with beautiful experiences.

                        Not all is good, the world still has angry, hurt, and